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A quoi se mesure le succès d'une action ?
13/02/2014 à 00h02
"À quoi se mesure le succès d’une action ? À la mise en œuvre des revendications portées, évidemment... mais ce résultat ne peut pas s’apprécier immédiatement.
En revanche, une chose est sûre : aujourd’hui, une action n’est réussie que si elle est largement relayée dans les médias."
Extrait de l'édito de CM sur le site CNSD
Ou comment expliquer le four de la dernière grève, comme aux plus belles heures du PCF.
Ce n'est plus une langue de bois, c'est un tronc
http://www.cnsd.fr/actualite/edito/945-sur-la-vague
13/02/2014 à 09h33
https://news.google.fr/news/rtc?ncl=d3s_v4dSZzrErhMAnRaWLo_xsUkVM&authuser=0&topic=m&siidp=48736ed605722a1eaf6f4515661ca5f135b5
Aucunes remarque sur un prix à baisser, juste sur l'insuffisance de la prise en charge sécu et juste pour 250 millions d'euro en grande partie sous estimé pour des appareils qui durent 5 ans.
14/02/2014 à 01h48
barbabapat écrivait:
... pour
> des appareils qui durent 5 ans.
Et qui bouffent des piles plus chères que le caviar.
Le marché est immense, en progression chaque année. Tous les petits jeunes avec leurs écouteurs enfoncés dans les oreilles qui se prennent des décibels à un cm des tympans pendant des heures vont devenir des gros consommateurs.
14/02/2014 à 01h52
Je viens de lire l'éditorial. Apparemment Mme Mojaïsky est mécontente de nos petites critiques sur internet.
On s'en fout. On aura toujours appris que la réussite d'une action n'a aucune importance, du moment qu'on parle de l'action.
14/02/2014 à 08h20
Entre confondre bashing et buzz et ne pas vouloir faire de la vraie communication, la cnsd sait toujours bien choisir les mots adaptés à la situation.
http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&redir_esc=&client=ms-android-htc-rev&source=android-browser-goto&v=133247963&qsubts=1392358628631&action=devloc&q=la+vague+film&v=133247963
14/02/2014 à 09h33
pourri écrivait:
----------------
> N'est pas taxi qui veut: 2 jours de manif et c'est gagné!!
Absolument d'accord avec toi...
Cette nuit, j'ai fait un rêve..., celui d'un monde dans lequel nous pourrions sortir nos fauteuils dans la rue et bloquer la circulation...
;=)))
14/02/2014 à 09h35
Pourquoi cette obsession avec "remboursement"?
Pourquoi en peu pas laisser le remboursement comme il est et avoir un plus grand responsabilité mis sur les assurances privées et les mutuels?
14/02/2014 à 09h43
Le Rosbif écrivait:
-------------------
> Pourquoi cette obsession avec "remboursement"?
>
> Pourquoi en peu pas laisser le remboursement comme il est et avoir un plus grand
> responsabilité mis sur les assurances privées et les mutuels?
La réponse a cette question se trouve dans le montant utilisé par les mutuelles en frais de communication ( pub, publication, lobbying, ect) et dans le finacement des parties politique.
Jusqu’à présent ça marche, car même chez les dentistes il est plutôt rare de pointer le faite que plus que les tarifs bloquer par le gouvernement c'est le fait que les complémentaire Française ne rembourse qu'une quinzaine d'euros sur un traitement molaire qui est complètement unique dans les pays civilisé.
Les grand gagnant de ce système économiquement se sont les complémentaire pas l'état.
--
หมอจัดฟัน
14/02/2014 à 10h35
Le Rosbif écrivait:
-------------------
> Pourquoi cette obsession avec "remboursement"?
>
> Pourquoi en peu pas laisser le remboursement comme il est et avoir un plus grand
> responsabilité mis sur les assurances privées et les mutuels?
-------------------
Les mutuelles veulent garder leur bénéfice,et aussi que leurs assurés aient le moins possible à charge, qui doit faire "l'effort" sur ses tarifs?
poser la question c'est y répondre.
15/02/2014 à 13h29
So, let me get this right. (I'll say this in English-dit moi si tu ne comprende pas).
You are saying:
There is no question that the mutuels will pay more money because they have the government in their pocket.
The SS cannot reimburse any more as there is no more money.
Therefore there are two options:
1)Keep the price of each act the same with the same reimbursement.
2)Allow the dentist to ask more money for each act and again keep the same reimbursement.
With number 1 it's the dentists which will be unhappy and complain.
With number 2 it's the voting population who will be unhappy and complain unless their mutuel reimburses more but, as above, that's not going to happen.
The government will prefer 1 because it's much easier to deal with a few complaining dentists and ignore them than the rest of the population.
15/02/2014 à 16h37
Le Rosbif écrivait:
-------------------
> Pourquoi cette obsession avec "remboursement"?
It's french. Reimbursement is for French what the Queen is for British. You can't understand this unless you were born in that country and staying there for more than three generations.
As long as we are talking about health cares, or it is reimbursed, or it is not. If it is, it's good. If not, it's bad.
Want an advice? Give up before you get a headache. My headache is going on its way since 20 years.
15/02/2014 à 19h30
pgc écrivait:
-------------
> Le Rosbif écrivait:
> -------------------
> > Pourquoi cette obsession avec "remboursement"?
>
> It's french. Reimbursement is for French what the Queen is for British. You
> can't understand this unless you were born in that country and staying there for
> more than three generations.
> As long as we are talking about health cares, or it is reimbursed, or it is not.
> If it is, it's good. If not, it's bad.
> Want an advice? Give up before you get a headache. My headache is going on its
> way since 20 years.
Couldn't care less about the queen tbh. Just someone lucky enough to be born into a position of power and privelege.
As for the reimbursement, come on, even the French must realise when enough is enough? ;-)
16/02/2014 à 09h49
Le Rosbif écrivait:
-------------------
> So, let me get this right. (I'll say this in English-dit moi si tu ne comprende
> pas).
>
> You are saying:
>
> There is no question that the mutuels will pay more money because they have the
> government in their pocket.
>
> The SS cannot reimburse any more as there is no more money.
>
> Therefore there are two options:
>
> 1)Keep the price of each act the same with the same reimbursement.
>
> 2)Allow the dentist to ask more money for each act and again keep the same
> reimbursement.
>
> With number 1 it's the dentists which will be unhappy and complain.
>
> With number 2 it's the voting population who will be unhappy and complain unless
> their mutuel reimburses more but, as above, that's not going to happen.
>
> The government will prefer 1 because it's much easier to deal with a few
> complaining dentists and ignore them than the rest of the population.
>
Very good analysis you just forgot to consider that if the option 2 is chosen the population will not be unhappy only with the government (the government being quite used to this by now) but also with their medical insurance who are currently reimbursing almost nothing on tooth decay, endodontic and surgery.
Currently the general population ( and most of the dentists I must add) is not really aware of this fact.
But if for example a patient was charge 160 euro for a endodontic treatment, he would most probably ask himself what is the benefit of subscribing for a dental plan which only reimburse 15 euro.
The medical insurance would have to raise the amount reimburse on all those act, and not by 3.4%.
They will fight to the death to prevent this, the real opposition come from here.
Interestingly I have never heard the main dental union making mention of this uncomfortable truth, for them the only one who can and have to pays is the government. The fact that it was not willing to do so when it had money and is currently almost bankrupt do not seem to phase them.
--
หมอจัดฟัน
16/02/2014 à 10h32
@ le Rosbif
Just out of curiosity what is the average amount reimburse by a standard medical insurance for the endodontic treatment of a molar in the U.K ?
16/02/2014 à 15h23
@ seespan
i like when you write in english which is much better than your french :)))
16/02/2014 à 15h23
@ seespan
i like when you write in english which is much better than your french :)))
16/02/2014 à 20h15
seespan écrivait:
-----------------
> @ le Rosbif
>
> Just out of curiosity what is the average amount reimburse by a standard medical
> insurance for the endodontic treatment of a molar in the U.K ?
That is a very very good question. I shall find out and also get some examples of endo prices in the UK.
At the moment it's looking like about £110 per canal so about €400 for a molar.
My brother in law pays £23 (€28) a month Denplan and needed endo and a crown on a mandibular incisor. He paid £100 in total out of his own pocket. Crowns are in the region of £400-£500.
I shall get some more precise info and post it up.
@Tizott, I know the feeling!
16/02/2014 à 22h43
OK, so here's the Denplan system attached.
The way it works is each patient is given a dental assessment by their dentist (who does Denplan). The price that the patient pays for their dental insurance depends on their dental health situation (and therefore "risk").
There are different levels of cover and the patient can choose from these. The best cover is
called "Denplan Care" and this will pay all dental treatment including crowns, bridges and endo.
On the attached list, it shows average prices (when no cover is taken) for treatments including endo, crowns etc on the right hand side.
The patient has to pay the lab fees for prosthetics which works out to about £100 per unit.
I've included two examples from their site which shows how much typical people would pay for the Denplan Care.
Someone with healthy teeth who rarely has problems pays £18.75 per month and someone who often has need of treatment pays £28.35 per month.
The average price of an endo treatment (i.e. average of molar, incisor/canine and premolar) is £200 so that's €240.
For crowns it's €462. I don't understand the €224.09 for bridges, maybe an error.
Notice the more balanced pricing between prothese and soin.
Average consultation fee €57 (does NOT include radiographs), composite filling "a partir de" €80.
Remember ALL of this is paid for by the insurance except the frais de labo.
Of course the dentist probably won't receive those average payments. I'll find out how much from some colleagues.
This is the first time I've looked at this to be honest.
Interesting isn't it?
Screen_Shot_2014-02-16_at_21.30.24_nbn6r9.png
Screen_Shot_2014-02-16_at_21.24.44_nrvqlf.png
Screen_Shot_2014-02-16_at_21.35.57_szwz0k.png
17/02/2014 à 02h59
Thank you for all those information.
So I suppose if I were to introduce in the U.K a French dental insurance plan, I would not meet with success :-) .
Would you believe it, almost two years that I am on this web site. Subject about work condition in general and the ludicrously low level of price on basic dental care in particular are brought up quite regularly.
In fact recently clinical subject are a minority, and the one which come up are usually lace with commentary on how you have to adapt the treatment plan to our ( well not mine anymore) psychotic health care system.
In two year to the best of my knowledge nobody make mention of the fact that the beneficiary of this stat of things was not the government, not the patient but the dental insurance company.
They have managed quite a unique formula, how to have patient pays industrialize country fare and distribute reimbursement that would be more appropriate for a third world country.
--
หมอจัดฟัน
17/02/2014 à 17h51
"Psychotic health system", I like it.
The other thing to add is don't forget that with the above system there is no social security involved to complicate matters. Good for the deficit too!
The other thing to consider are the conditions Under which the work is done:
10% URSSAF means you can employ far more people.
Always a receptionist, and often two, to answer the phone and make appointments and take payments.
Several hygienists.
Always a chairside assistant.
Most of the time a practice manager to handle paperwork etc
I phoned Denplan to find out how it works financially and they told me that it is Denplan who receives the monthly payment from the patients and they remove an administration fee from this ranging from £3.59 to £1.50, depending on the number of Denplan patients you have.
The rest is then payed to the dentist.
So you're looking at €25-€30 or more per patient, per month, guaranteed. Obviously, you would also have other non-Denplan patients who would be paying fees for work done.
Remember the dentist receives this money whether he does any work on the patient or not.
Tell me what I'm doing here again?